25. Principal, RA Law and ADR

Intro: Duration: (01:53)

Opening music jingle & sound effects

Jeff Hunt:

Welcome, everyone! This is Human Capital, a GoalSpan podcast, and I'm Jeff Hunt. On Human Capital, I interview top business thought leaders to uncover the deeply human aspect of work. Conflict. How many of you listening to this episode love conflict? If you're like me, you don't welcome conflict into your life.

But the reality is that we must deal with it almost every day at work. The other reality is that when engaging with conflict in a healthy way at work, leads to many positive outcomes. These include better decisions, better relationships, greater creativity, and innovation. And most importantly, better internal and external alignment with what you are thinking, feeling, and doing.

I would suggest that doing this well is perhaps one of the greatest leadership skills. My guest today is an expert in this realm. Steve Roof has spent a career helping people, teams, and businesses, large and small, navigate this tricky space. Steve was originally trained in the law but is now a mediator who is also trained in several psychological modalities, which he uses to help his clients get unstuck in the midst of conflict.

Steve received his bachelor's degree from Harvard University and his doctorate of law from Michigan law school. Welcome, Steve.

Steve Roof:

Thank you, Jeff. Thank you for having me.

Jeff Hunt:

It's great to have you on the show today. And this is such a topic that most people avoid because they just don't like it. Conflict.

Steve Roof:

Yes. Conflict is a dirty word. In most people's minds.

Topic 1. Who or what inspired you to follow your path? (01:54)

Jeff Hunt:

It really is. I'm excited to hear your take on this topic, because like I said, in the intro. It's not always negative. There are so many positive outcomes that can resolve from healthy conflict. I think the key is defining the difference between healthy conflict and unhealthy conflict.

But before we do all that, I would love to rewind the movie to the beginning of your career and have you share, who or what prompted you to become a mediator originally getting trained in the law, but eventually becoming a mediator and landing in this space?

Steve Roof:

Well, if you go back even before law school, my first memory of mediation was one of my best friends throughout elementary, junior, and high school was a guy named Steve.

He had an older brother, Mike. They were roommates. I remember maybe my sophomore year in college, I was visiting back home in Texas visiting for spring break. And the two roommate brothers got into a big fight and we're not speaking to each other. And for some strange reason, I found myself doing some Henry Kissinger, shuttle diplomacy back and forth between them.

Sort of explaining each of the other person's point of view to the one I was talking to, and it meant with some success and some surprise, they were both kinds of surprised at what they learned through the process. And I gave it no more thought. I continued in college and then to law school, etcetera. But many years later was attracted back to the same dynamic in the legal and business field.

Topic 2. What are the fundamentals of mediation? (03:32)

Jeff Hunt:

We're going to jump deeper to conflict and regarding mediation. I think there's probably a number of listeners that don't really have a detailed understanding of what mediation actually is. Can you provide an overview?

Steve Roof:

Sure. So most mediation that takes place in the United States today takes place in a court-ordered setting, such that the judge requires the parties to mediate.

Maybe 30, 35 years ago, mediation was rarely used in the courts in the United States and a few jurisdictions began to experiment with it. And what they noticed was that. So they're surprised about 75% of cases that the judges send to mediation, settled. And so, as you can imagine, judges all across the country, jumped on this opportunity to get back control of the dockets control of their time, the chance to play a little more golf, maybe.

And so, since then, basically in all 50 states now in state and federal court, you cannot get a trial without first attempting mediation. The judge will not give you a trial date. If you haven't first attempted mediation, so it's pretty much ubiquitous in the court system. And then it's crept in, to usage at a number of places in community use between police and civilians and a number between victims and offenders and a number of cases.

So, it's beginning to be used elsewhere. Also, it's beginning to be used earlier in conflict than sometimes before it gets into the court system. I served on a task force at the American bar appointed to look into this issue of, could we save a lot of litigation costs and court resources? If we could resolve much earlier if we could intervene much earlier in the conflict?

And a few companies have tried it. Georgia Pacific tried it, General Electric tried it, Motorola, Toro lawnmowers, all of them found great success with the program. There was resistance, the things that keep it from being adopted, but it is successful when used.

Jeff Hunt:

Interesting. So it's really taken on a completely different form. It sounds like over the past, what, 20 or 30 years?

Steve Roof:

That's right in this country it's used differently in other parts of the world. It's more in consensus-based societies like those in East Asia, it's been informally a part of conflict resolution for much longer.

Jeff Hunt:

Okay. And eventually, we're going to get to conflict in the workplace and how it can be used in a positive way. But just to understand the structure of mediation a little bit more talk about what that looks like between the parties. Is it a one-day event? How does that actually work?

Steve Roof:

It can be one day. It usually is a one-day event. For more complex cases that might involve multiple parties or multiple complex issues, then sometimes it is a multiple-day event. Sometimes you go all day and it turns out that the parties need more information in order to be able to make an intelligent decision.

So you adjourn with a specific recommencement date of several weeks later. Is it usually the way it would work. The parties come together in a room. Generally, they meet together in what's called a joint session. Shortly after then, they break them up. They're broken up into separate rooms and it's the mediator's job to shuttle back and forth, trying to find common ground.

That's a lot of what it is. Yes. This is about half of what I do now. The other half of what I do has nothing to do with the court system and nothing to do with formal mediation, even though it grew out of it that involves working with family-owned businesses and corporate teams using the same skills, using the same tool.

But the big difference is that these are people that are not just going to come together for one day and try to resolve a conflict. These are people that have to continue to work together, ongoingly, and there's conflict within their team or in the family business that they deem is ceased to be constrained.

So they want help in transforming what conflict they have into more constructive conflict. So that's the other half of what I do. And that's more on an ongoing engagement basis versus the one-offs of court-ordered media.

Topic 3. What is the importance of resolving conflict in family businesses? (08:06)

Jeff Hunt:

Got it. I have a unique appreciation for family businesses since I used to run one in my former career. And it seems as though the need to be able to resolve conflict in a healthy way among family businesses is critically important because it could lead either to the end of the family business or to success. Right?

Steve Roof:

Yes. And it has obvious repercussions outside the business. Both negative and positive.

If there's unresolved conflict in the business, that's going to spill over into the family. If you can transform that into creative conflict within the business, that's going to spill over in a positive way into the family with increased respect, increased compassion, and empathy I often find. So, either the family business is unique and that there are these multipliers out to a second. Whether positive or negative.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah. And it seems very complicated because in families you're dealing with the family of origin. So you may have aunts, uncles, sisters, and brothers in the business, mothers, fathers, and growing up with those people. And then you're dealing with separate differences around the business itself.

And the cross-pollination between those. So that seems very tricky to me.

Steve Roof:

Yes, it is tricky because usually, especially with some of the psychological tools that I use, like ifs and some others. Often the people that created these models have found no great surprise to your listeners. I'm sure that some of the problems have they're in conflict have their root in family origin.

So if the conflict is playing out today between two siblings and a business really has its roots 20 years ago. And the resentments have built up from unresolved conflict. It's old, embedded, it's again a magnifier effect. It's dragging them down, both in their family relationship and their business relationship.

If you can resolve it, they're freed of that problem in the business relationship and the family relationships. So once again, it has this multiplier out to a second level.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah, it seems as though, in some cases you may actually not be dealing with the primary conflict at hand. It's something that's cumulative from the past that is amplifying the conflict in a way that it wouldn't be otherwise. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Steve Roof:

It can get very complicated, especially where you have multiple generations involved because the parents that are in conflict with their adult children in the business may well be the ones who installed the buttons that they are then pushing. They are the ones that sometimes created these patterns in these kids. So that gets quite complicated, at times.

Jeff Hunt:

When do disputes actually end up coming to you?

Steve Roof:

Well, it depends. I sort of divided my work into two hats, right? There's stuff. That's court-ordered, and that which is more working with family business teams or corporate business teams. Most of the latter category.

I'm working with people in the aerospace industry because that's just the field that I practice law in for many years. So that's where a lot of my expertise and experience lie. So, for that category, I would say it is changing in that people are coming to me earlier and earlier because they recognize the value in intervening before things get destructive. On the other side of the court-ordered side, they usually come to me when the judge sends them.

Jeff Hunt:

You mentioned earlier, your work includes one-day mediations and also ongoing work with your clients. How do they differ from each other?

Steve Roof:

Well, in the one-day mediation experience, this is probably the only time these people are ever going to meet. Sometimes in aerospace, the players are quite large and there are not that many, for example, there are only a few, large commercial jet airframe manufacturers in the world.

And there are only a few companies that make the engines for that aircraft. So those people are kind of a hybrid. They're kind of like a family business in a way. They have to figure out a way to resolve their dispute and still stay friends because there aren't enough other suppliers. For them to do business with.

But most of the other ones, if they're not those mega players, they're smaller players. They won't do business again because of this complex. So they just want to get in and get a resolution and get out. So I find them less motivated to look in, where to look at themselves, to look at their own role too, they don't see this as a leadership challenge.

They see this as an obstacle in the road to be removed. On the other side, when I'm working with corporate teams or businesses, or teams that are family or non-family. There's usually a higher level of motivation. They've committed to coming to me more often. There's usually more pain involved that's motivated them to come.

Not just the pain of litigation, but the pain of having to work with people that they're not getting along with. So that motivational level, I find causes people to be much more willing to look inward, to try to see what are the real dynamics here. How do we get through to where we can co-create again, or co-create better?

Whereas in litigation, people are not looking to do that at all. They just want to settle and go home.

Topic 4. The IFS model. What is it and how does it work? (14:04)

Jeff Hunt:

I would love for you to share a little bit about this IFS model, and maybe remind our listening audience, what it is.

Steve Roof:

Sure. So we're all familiar in this culture with being asked an easy question, for example, what do you want for dinner?

Well, part of me feels like Italian, but I'm a part of me that feels like Chinese. So this recognition that we have, various interests within us, interest groups, arts, whatever you want to call them, and we have different impulses. And I hear the same thing at the mediation level. Part of me wants to just settle this damn case and move on.

And part of me wants to punish the son of a bitch for what he did to the company. Well, those are strong polls in opposite directions. And so what we do in IFS is recognize the validity of both of those points of view. Both of those points of view have a lot of value. We don't want to lose that, but we don't necessarily want to let either one take over.

Because that might not lead to the best and highest decision, the best outcome. So what we try to do is hear from all the voices, but get taken over by none. In our culture, there's this pretense that we have a so-called unified mind. We have a single mind. We don't have. This internal war going on.

We disguise that because it's vulnerable to expose that. That we have that sometimes it's ambivalence. Sometimes it's ambiguity inside. So to protect ourselves, we cover that up. If we slow down and look inside, inevitably, we find that we have what in IFS we call these polarizations these poles in different directions.

And our job is to listen to each of those voices, but don't let any of those voices drive the bus. And if an often, everyone's familiar with either from themselves or from someone they know with this notion of someone losing their temper. Well, that's someone getting taken over by a part that's very angry about something. Not to say that the person doesn't have a right to be angry, but it doesn't always serve them best to let that part of themselves take over. And so what happens when the person loses their temper and this part takes over and that's the part driving the bus as I say. What we want to do is what we call unblend, which doesn't mean to get rid of this part.

It means just to get some space, to get it to step back so that we can step back into a leadership role. Our true self and step back into the leadership role. We can hear from that part, that's lost his temper. We can hear from another part that maybe had its feelings hurt by whatever happened.

We can hear by another part that is upset at the part that loses its temper and says, you always embarrass us like this. We can hear from everyone. And then we have a little bit of silence and space and we can think and decide here's how I want to respond. So it's this act of unblending that's central to the work that I do when people are hijacked by part of themselves during the conflict process.

Jeff Hunt:

And it sounds like what you're saying is that. Inside each one of us, we actually have this strong internal leader that doesn't have to go to extreme places. And sometimes we are taken over by these extreme viewpoints, which may be polarized, but ultimately if we can listen to what's going on internally to these various parts of us, we can really enter into conflict in a healthier way, rather than this extreme, unhealthy way, is that right?

Steve Roof:

That's right. And to those of your listeners who are familiar with any kind of systems theory, this is a systems theory. The model, as I was listening to you, I was realizing everything you said applies at the next level out also so that there is within a corporate environment, there's a leader, there's the designated leader, the CEO, or whatever title he might have.

And then there are the other players on the team. Some of them will often get polarized. We'll have patterns of getting, the person who wants to take the most aggressive approach on the new sales campaign and the person who feels like that's way too out there. It needs to retrain. You'll see on corporate teams that people regularly get into these polarizations.

Once again, they have value and that's why we say all parts are welcome. All voices are welcome. It doesn't mean that they're welcome to do whatever they want to do, but it means that they're welcome to be a part of the system and to speak up. And then this leader that you're talking about within us listens to all of that, or if it's in a team, the leader of the company or the family business listens to all of that and from all of that input makes a decision, but without getting, I sometimes say sucked into anybody's story.

Appreciating everyone's story, but not getting sucked into anyone's story.

Jeff Hunt:

Yeah. Sometimes we have to disagree, but commit, right? And I'm also reflecting on how analogous it is, what you're describing, the internal inner working and system of each person and the external cultural inter-workings of an organization, right?

Steve Roof:

That's right. It's a system. Just one system up, one level higher upon, but with the same sorts of dynamics and the same internal laws of physics, as we say.

Topic 5. The role of curiosity in conflict resolution. (19:44)

Jeff Hunt:

So one of the things you sort of mentioned in several different ways is the topic of curiosity and reminding our listeners that like really, what we're trying to get engaged with here is, what does healthy conflict look like? So It seems to me that curiosity is vital in order to have healthy conflict. Wouldn't you say?

Steve Roof:

When I'm working with corporate teams, one of the questions I ask when I do a breakout session with an individual was, so the other person who, with whom you were regularly in elevated conflict, heated conflict, do you have any curiosity about what is driving them? How they came to that point of view? And their level of curiosity is usually an indicator to me of how blended they are with their own part.

That's a sort of a barometer. So what you're looking for ideally, and I would tell your listeners, if you find yourself in a high conflict situation, if you're looking for a shift, see if you can, just for one moment, add a little bit of curiosity about what that person on the other side of the table was thinking, what their motivation is, or bringing in a little bit of NBC, which is Marshall.

What need are they trying to fulfill? What is the need they're trying to fulfill by this behavior? That looks so crazy and counterproductive to me because if there's one thing I've learned through this work, people are always trying to fill a legitimate need, and what they do now, their strategies can be wacko.

The strategies that they're trying to get there can be disruptive. Ridiculous. I mean, just look at addictive behaviors. Those strategies are quite destructive, but they have a logic to them. They have an internal logic of self-soothing or checking out, or what of dissociating. There's always an internal logic to these parts and what they're doing to these strategies.

Jeff Hunt:

It also feels like being curious is absolutely just a plain good leadership skill.

Steve Roof:

I think so. I think it's got to be one of the highest leadership skills. Obviously, there's a time to close the book and decide and take action and move forward. But if, when you're in the creative process, when you're in the collaborative process, I think curiosity is at least, for me, is the highest value. To really be sincerely interested in what's going on for the other people and what they have to bring to the table.

If you're not curious, then there's a problem. That problem either is with you or with them. It may be that they have demonstrated over time that they don't bring value. In which case you're not curious. And they shouldn't probably be there on the team if they do bring value. And you're not curious. That means the problem is with you. And you need to work a little bit with your curiosity.

Topic 6. Protective strategies people use when in conflict. (22:38)

Jeff Hunt:

So Steve, tell us a little bit about the protective strategies that people develop as a result of all these parts.

Steve Roof:

So you'll see people, some people shut down in meetings. If they introduce an idea and it's not well received, sometimes people shut down.

Other people take the same example. They introduce an idea it's not well received, become defensive, and start getting dug in around their idea. There's a variety of strategies that people take to protect themselves. And that's what I try to help my clients see. Do you see that this is about protection?

They're protecting themselves from some feeling of being humiliated or embarrassed or ashamed or whatever. There's a multiplicity of things which we could go into more if that's useful but important just as you're in the meeting and you're a third party. You can learn a lot by just watching what's happening in the way that people erect their protection and take on these strategies, which may not always make so much sense.

And that's when, as we were saying, they may do things that are increasingly not relational. Cause if you just think about what's more important? Safety or connecting? Safety is always first, right? First, you've got to make sure that you're safe yourself before you then able to establish a connection with another.

So people are reluctant to acknowledge this truth. But the truth is the in business meetings. Emotional safety gets threatened frequently. This is a common, common thing in the human experience. And people are reluctant to admit that because it's just too vulnerable, but the vulnerability is often where the real juice is, if you can get to the juiciness, I mean the bigger, the conflict, I see big conflict as juicy.

This tells me there is passion in the room. Look at all this energy in the room, just ready to be directed in a constructive way. So very often what happens is in either in a session together or session one-on-one with me, we're able to get below the surface of the protection to what it is that they're feeling below that, the vulnerability, the fear of being shamed, or whatever else.

And that's just the part not to dismiss it, but it's, it's very empowering and liberating to realize that's not all of who they are. That's just a part that holds that experience from some time in the past. And it doesn't need to run the show. There's someone bigger or more grown-up here to run the show.

Some of my favorite times in this work are when it's happening with two or three team members in the room, and one person is able to say, ah, okay I see. This is what's coming up from the, I have a part that's really dug in around this because of XYZ and shell a little bit of the vulnerability and what that does is opens up the space for the other two people in the room to also, oh, he's not dug in anymore.

I don't have to fight anymore. And they begin to see the role of their own parts. I was working with a mother and son in business recently after about six months, I got a text from the son who said, my mom and I just had this incredible experience. We started to spiral into a fight in the business.

And all of a sudden she looked at me and said, oh, what part is that? And I looked at her and said, well, what part is that in you? And we both just took a deep breath and we saw what was going on. We laughed, we figured out what was happening. We moved on. It was so much more creative and so much more positive.

Jeff Hunt:

It really goes right back to what you just said a minute ago, which is curiosity. They both allow themselves to have enough curiosity about each other and also what's going on inside themselves to really pivot that conversation to a much healthier place.

Steve Roof:

That's right. It's all about curiosity versus protection. The more you're in a highly protective mode, you've got no curiosity left. The more you're in a highly curious mode, that protection is probably quite low when you're able to be more real or human or vulnerable. And in my experience more creative.

Jeff Hunt:

Interesting. And let me just clarify something because I think it's an important nuance. I believe that people oftentimes mistake, curiosity for acceptance. And that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the case. So in other words, if you and I are in deeply oppositional places, and I get curious about what your motivation is and why you're feeling so strong, it doesn't mean that I'm accepting your position there, that I have to agree to your position right?

Steve Roof:

That's right. Another way to say it is that you're truly open to what I'm saying and to the value that there might be in what I'm saying. But by no means, are you agreeing to it and by no means, are you blessing it or endorsing it? A good friend of mine, who's active in this same field has written a book with one of the founders of IFS. With the founded with Dick Schwartz.

And I remember feeling a little bit uncomfortable about that. And finally, I told my friend, you know, Bob, I have a part that is jealous. That you have all this success. Bob was, curious and listened to that yet he didn't endorse me and being jealous. He said that's good. I hope try to make you jealous some more. But he was open to the experience of it and the fact that it was just a part of me and I have other parts that are thrilled to see him succeed.

Jeff Hunt:

Well, and it seems to me that in the business environment when you are able to get curious, it would diffuse the other person because all of a sudden they feel like you care more about their position, and maybe they feel like they've been heard and understood. Versus not having that, right?

Steve Roof:

That's right. And then that bridge is over for both kinds of work that I do. Both in the corporate teams and family businesses, as well as the one-off mediations, because I think everyone in the court system was amazed at the success of the court of mediation that has settled so many cases.

And I think it's because what happens is. When you do that, so-called caucusing. When you break them into two rooms, What's happening is someone is coming in and bringing a ton of curiosity to tell me about what happened and why that happened to you, and how that happened to you and how that impacted you, how that affected your family and all these, the person is really, really hurt in a new way.

And then the mediator commits to, I'm going to take your story to the other side. So they know not only is he hearing it, but there's a messenger, that's carrying their story. So I think that's a lot of the magic of what happens with the mediation room that led to such high settlement rates.

Jeff Hunt:

I love the way you described that and it makes perfect sense. When is it appropriate to cut ties with a person?

Steve Roof:

Well, I talked earlier about if you're the leader and you're not curious in meetings about what a particular person is saying. If they add value to the company. And you're not curious, then that's your issue. If they, if you're not curious, the other things that may be a attempt to you that they don't have value to the company. So that's certainly one instance. I mean, I am not a therapist. And what I do is not therapy. I use psychological tools in consulting, but there are certainly times when people have brought enough baggage from their own trauma that they need to go off and work with someone privately.

And so if they're willing to do that work, that's great. I think they can be great contributors to the team. If people are unwilling to do their work and they're highly disruptive in a conflictual way. That's the time when it may be appropriate that for them to move on because they're unwilling to address the causes of the conflict.

Topic 7. Lighting round questions. (31:03)

Jeff Hunt:

Makes sense. All right. Let's shift into some lightning-round questions. Okay. What are you most grateful for?

Steve Roof:

I think to support my ability to give and receive support from colleagues, family, and friends. I didn't always know how to do that. So I'm grateful for having learned how to do that.

Jeff Hunt:

What is the most difficult leadership lesson you've learned over your career?

Steve Roof:

Don't make important decisions without that support. So especially decisions for me that have any emotional content. I know now from experience that parts are going to get involved. Parts of me are going to come in and hat. And so it's very easy to get hijacked. So I seek external support in those cases, people that can help me to unblend from those parts.

Jeff Hunt:

Who's one person you would interview if you could? Living or not.

Steve Roof:

Albert Einstein. I love the little glimmers that I've seen in the quotes of his humanity, his sense of humor, his spirituality. So, I'd like to see the man behind the genius.

Jeff Hunt:

Do you have a top book recommendation?

Steve Roof:

Thomas Kuhn, the structure of scientific revolutions.

Completely changed the way that I see paradigm shifts. It was a very controversial book when it came out in the sixties, but it's now pretty much accepted by many in the scientific community as being accurately accurate and how it describes how paradigm shifts happen. So it's a great book. That deconstructs transformation.

Jeff Hunt:

What's the best piece of advice you've ever received.

Steve Roof:

Check to see if I'm blended before I speak. I mean, it's taken over by apart.

Jeff Hunt:

It's drinking your own. Kool-Aid right there.

Steve Roof:

That's right.

Jeff Hunt:

So, Steve what's one or two important points, you would like our Human Capital listeners to take away from our talk today.

Steve Roof:

When you're in a situation where folks on your team or in conflict and that involves you or doesn't. Try to look to see what is, and this is the curiosity, again, be curious about what is the need they're trying to fulfill by what they're doing. And the second piece would be what we call the U-turn to look at yourself and ask the same question. What is the need that I'm trying to fulfill by what I'm doing? Who's driving the bus here? Who's in charge asking it of that on the outside and asking it on the inside.

Jeff Hunt:

So that's the YOU turn instead of the U-turn right?

Steve Roof:

That's correct. U-turn to return. So you do the U-turn first so that you can return to the outside.

Jeff Hunt:

Fantastic. Well, this has been some great wisdom. I've loved our conversation today. Thanks so much for coming to the show.

Steve Roof:

It's great. Well, thank you for having me Jeff, it was good to see you.

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Outro (34:14)

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Jeff Hunt:

Thanks for listening to the show this week. We release a new episode of Human Capital every other Tuesday. I would love to know what you thought of this episode, so please email your comments to humancapital@goalspan.com. Human Capital is produced by GoalSpan, a performance management technology and consulting company. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and please share this podcast with your colleagues, team, or friends, thanks for being human kind.