61. Difficult Conversations

Intro: Duration: (02:41)

Opening music jingle & sound effects

Jeff Hunt:

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Welcome to the Human Capital Podcast, I'm Jeff Hunt. Whether you are an individual contributor, a supervisor, or an executive at your organization, difficult conversations are impossible to avoid at work. Actually, you can avoid these conversations and many people do, but doing so usually comes at a very high price.

It could be a performance review or asking for a raise or giving your manager constructive feedback. Today we are dedicating the show to talking about how to lean into healthy conflict at work. By the way, have you noticed that the best leaders and colleagues at work seem to be very good at this? You see them having conversations where people still feel respected and they maintain their dignity and they feel empowered.

But if we avoid these conversations, we can build up resentment that leads to decreased productivity, disengagement, and even reduced collaboration. Avoiding conflict also increases stress and anxiety and can ultimately impact employee mental health and wellbeing. According to CPP Global, the average employee spends 2.8 hours per week dealing with conflict, which adds up to 385 million working days lost per year in the us.

Regarding interpersonal relationship conflict, the Gottman Institute found that 69% of relationship conflicts are perpetual, meaning they are ongoing issues that may never be fully resolved. This topic is so important that the world renowned Haas School of Business at uc, Berkeley. Implemented a class about it into their curriculum.

The class is called Difficult Conversations Conflict Lab, and was held last fall to help 30 students in the MBA program practice difficult conversations that included giving constructive feedback and saying no to the boss. Today, my guest is one of the course facilitators, Francesca LeBaron, who is a faculty member at Haass and an alum of the Haass MBA program.

Francesca is going to help us understand the best strategies for leaning into healthy conflict at work. Welcome Francesca.

Francesca LeBaron:

Hi Jeff.

Topic 1. Who or what inspired you in your career? (02:42)

Jeff Hunt:

So happy to be here. Yeah, thanks so much for coming on the show. Hi. This is a topic that people like to avoid like the plague because it's so uncomfortable, and so I'm excited to have you help us unpack how we can develop strategies and maybe reduce some anxiety that comes about when we're gonna have a difficult conversation.

Absolutely. Let's do it. And before we do, take a few minutes to share a thumbnail of your career journey and sort of how you landed where you are teaching this class.

Francesca LeBaron:

I think this is so hilarious that I ended up teaching how to have difficult conversations because I if, if I look at my career, I was horrible at this.

Absolutely horrible. Growing up in my household was a lot, uh, conflict resolution was a lot about blaming, like who's to blame, like pointing the finger, and that was like our main strategy at conflict resolution. My background's in management consulting, so I have almost a decade of dealing with clients and different teams and different styles.

So it got to a point where I went to business school and I realized that all of my strategies for dealing with conflict were not working. I ended up hurting a bunch of people that I really care about and I was like, okay, this like blame and shame game is like not working. And so I actually became, I got trained as a mediator, not because I wanted to do it professionally, just because I was like, in my personal life, like this isn't working.

I was like, there's gotta be a better way. I go to is anger. I'm very spicy and I was like, I need better strategies so I don't end up hurting the people I love. Went into business school with a decade of management consulting, and then exited. I was like, Ugh, this is, I feel relieved. I have better strategies.

I started coaching startup founders and I was like, this isn't a me thing. Like we all suck at this. Like how do we, right. How do we get better? So I, um, me and my co lecture, we were like, we needed to create the class that we wish we had. In our MBA program, because leaders, specifically leaders at HOAs, we wanted to make sure were empowered with the skillset.

Topic 2. Difficult conversations: Conflict Lab (05:53)

Jeff Hunt:

So, tell me a little bit more about the actual class and, and what you did the setup. What's the syllabus, what's the curriculum look like?

Francesca LeBaron:

Well, what many things I love about this, but a lot of the curriculum is from our students. So in the beginning of the semester, we ask MBA students, what are the most difficult conversations you've ever had?

You've avoided, you've witnessed, and then we have this synonymous survey. We look at all of the examples and. And we pick out the themes, we anonymize them and then we do them. It is a hundred percent a lab. It is experiential. We role play with other students in the class. And then kind of some of our favorite parts are, we brought in undergrads to role play the, so we had a, a session, a lab where, The NBAs had to fire the undergrads and every, and everyone got triggered and it was so emotional.

And, and then we had, uh, our alumni come in and they pretended to play board members or difficult clients or their bosses and they had to give them upward feedback and, you know, set boundaries. And I think that's a lot of the magic of the class is we. Yes, there's like the theory behind it, but you can talk theory all day.

The only way to do it is to actually get reps in and get practice, and that's how you, it's a muscle. It is building the muscle. So I say we, we hit the gym. Every time we go to lab, we hit the gym, we get the reps, and you get more and more comfortable with more times you do it.

Jeff Hunt:

When students come into your class for the first time, do they really know what to expect?

Francesca LeBaron:

Do they know what to expect? Probably not, which is why we set the first class that we did in a lot of programs, there's kind of an ad drop period where you get to kind of try out the classes. So we are very upfront about what people were getting into because to be successful in class, there's a level of you need to be comfortable being uncomfortable.

So it's not necessarily for everyone, cuz it's not theory, it's, it's really a lab. So we said that the objective of the first class is to get rid of half of you. We are very upfront of that. That is the success. At the end of the day, it didn't work very well, which was irony. So we might have to update that strategy, but like we wanted to give people a taste of.

This is the lab, this is the class. This is the real world. So we did an an exercise called speed dating, or not speed dating. It's based off of speed dating. It's called speed conflict. But it's the same idea where you go through two minute, very rapid sessions of really spicy conflict. And they did that for about 30 minutes.

And we were just like, if you are so overwhelmed, do you think you're gonna pass out? This is not the class for you. If you're like, that was extremely uncomfortable, but I can hang, you're in the right place.

Topic 3. Learning to deal with conflict in a healthy and successful way (07:31)

Jeff Hunt:

Well, that makes me realize that. Regardless of whether it's community or class or into the workplace, people are actually approaching this topic from very different places.

You may have somebody that comes from a family of origin where healthy conflict was modeled, you know, maybe their parents demonstrated how to stay in conflict, but still do it in respectful and loving ways. You may have other people that have come into the class or into the workplace where they don't want to touch conflict at all because in their environment where they grew up, it could have been volatile or it could have been even dangerous in some cases.

So I'm just reflecting on the fact that this is also happening at work. Mm-hmm. And so how do we come together from these different places in a healthy and successful way?

Francesca LeBaron:

I think something that you touched on, which is so important, is kind of knowing your default setting. So we talk a lot about that in class.

Like what are the messages you received? What are the models of conflict? Were you able to speak your mind? Were you not able to advocate for your wants and needs? Like what were the messages you received around conflict? So I think of a lot about knowing your default setting, and we give them assessments of like, are you more conflict avoidant?

And it turned out like 80%. Of our class wanted to take our class because they are conflict avoidant. So knowing that that is your default setting and then the unpacking the why, and for everyone it's different. But giving time to be like, what are, what is the why behind that avoidance? I am, I'm on the other end of like, I am, I'm very spicy naturally.

So I'm, I am like conflict, bring it on, which is also not healthy because I'm, I'm approaching a conversation wanting to be right and not necessarily with empathy. So that's something I had to learn. So I think that, again, going back to your original point of like. What? Understanding your default, understanding why it's your default, and then you can make updates to, okay, these are the messages I received growing up and this is what, um, these are the messages received, and then I get to choose and as, as an adult, as an employee, which I am going to adopt into my actual behavior and bring into the workplace.

Jeff Hunt:

So part of what you're describing is really just actually helping people improve their self-awareness going into these situations, because if I am, have greater self-awareness that I'm triggered in a certain way when somebody's responding aggressively, then I can sort of manage that better if I, if I have less self-awareness around that.

That I might be triggered and then do or say something in an unhealthy way, right?

Francesca LeBaron:

Yeah, absolutely. We do an entire class on, you know, what are our activators, and then also bringing in the, the body of how our body responds. Our body knows that we're triggered before our cognitive brain can catch up. So the more that we can listen to the messages from our body, how does stress, how does activation show up in our bodies?

And for everyone, it's different. Some people, it's their stomach. Some people it's, you know, the, for me, it's my breathing. I stop breathing every time. Then I'm really feeling activated. My heart rate goes, but the more space. That we can give between noticing our somatic symbols or um, indicators of activation, the more that we can work to regulate, so I can sense it now and I can start my breathing exercises, I can update my stance to make sure that I'm grounded into the floor.

I can ask for the space I need. So self-awareness, not only in. Like our feelings and how we're, and like mentally what we're thinking about, but a hundred percent from our body and listening to the, the wisdom of our body, which can help us regulate so we can be in a place to be effective.

Topic 4. How to begin a difficult conversation? Delivering feedback (11:15)

Jeff Hunt:

That's awesome. I love that. I'm also thinking that in the workplace you have, in most organizations a hierarchical structure. So I mean, there are some organizations that are very matrix oriented. So that's difficult to pull off. But if you are, if you do have a hierarchical structure, let's say you're a manager and you're gonna go meet with your employee and deliver some difficult, constructive feedback, isn't it helpful to actually check in with that employee about where they're at before you begin the conversation?

So, Let's say, you know, they're gonna feel very anxious coming into this difficult conversation if you set the stage and just say, Hey, how are you feeling? Are you feeling anxious about, you know, this conversation? Is something like that helpful?

Francesca LeBaron:

Francesca, I really encourage leaders to co-author what that space looks like.

That works for both parties. If it's taking a walk outside, if it's like getting written feedback before so they have time to digest it, there's no one size fits all. I really encourage people to have an open dialogue around like, how do you, even way before performance review way before this, like what is the manner in which you like to receive constructive feedback?

Like, how do you deliver it in a way that feels supportive to you, which is different depending on the relationship, on the type of feedback. Um, but understanding what that is way before there is feedback to give and making sure that, again, this is not a, the leader should not try and read minds. It should be an open dialogue and it shows that you care as a leader.

If you're acting of like, Hey, I wanna make sure that I'm giving you feedback that that lands is supportive, help me understand what that looks like for you. Yeah.

Jeff Hunt:

Leaders should never assume, should they?

Francesca LeBaron:

Yeah. I, I think a lot of our default setting is, this is how I like to receive it, so that's how I'm gonna give it to others.

And that's, you know, never, in my experience, that's never been the case there. There's always updates, but then on the other end, people need to know what that is for them. People need to know how do, like, what would supportive look like for me?

Jeff Hunt:

And really customizing the delivery as well, right? If you're a leader or manager, every single person's different.

And if you know there's one person that you need to have a difficult conversation with much more clarity and energy, you need to sort of customize that versus somebody who's gonna have bring more sensitivity. Into the conversation, right?

Francesca LeBaron:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I had one client where the way he delivered constructive feedback was while he was rock climbing.

Like, that was the best way I find we're very stuck in like a, it looks like this in this way, and we're sitting across the room and we're in a separate, and it really, it really doesn't have to be that at all. I'm encouraging my clients to go outside to be really grounded in nature, which is reduces anxiety.

So again, the objective at the end of the day is that it's received as supportive, it's received, it's listened to, it's improved on. So let's maximize whatever we can do to make sure that that happens effectively.

Jeff Hunt:

Talk a little bit about visioning in a conversation. You know, you're gonna have a difficult conversation.

Can visioning a successful outcome help us?

Francesca LeBaron:

Yes. I love, I love the words that you use are visioning and outcome. These are two words. I've talked to my, my students and leaders a lot. I don't like to use language of right and wrong. Like, oh, that was a wrong way to have this discussion. This is the right way.

Because at the end of the day, it's, it's, did you achieve your objective? Like, what is your objective in the, in the conversation? And then I challenge my leaders not only to be like, what, what can you control in that objective? Which at the end of the day is not a lot. You cannot control how someone's gonna react.

The only thing you control is how you show up to that conversation. So how are you showing up? And then you can have, you know the goals of, you know, they hear you, the other person, you know, understands the feedback. And there's things you can do to increase the probability. But at the end of the day, the only thing you can control is how you show up.

And I think so in, when I think of, to your question, visioning, yes, you can envision an outcome, but really envision you showing up. Intentions for, I wanna show up as calm. I wanna show up as respectful. I wanna make sure that I'm listening to my partner, that I am, that I'm understanding, I'm repeating back that they feel heard.

So I invite people to envision how are you gonna show up in that conversation and practice that kind of way of being in that energy and those intentions. Cuz number one, that's what you can control. And number two, if you practice that being in that space, that is, you'll show up that way.

Jeff Hunt:

That's great because if we have these expectations for outcomes, it's very possible that we'll be disappointed versus if we just show up and we have expectations of ourselves and how we're going to behave.

Then we'll never be disappointed as long as we are able to, I would say never showing up.

Francesca LeBaron:

Showing up calm for a very spicy is like hit or miss. But I did, I had this with my students last week. I was like, well, what was your object? They're like, oh, I totally failed at that. I was like, well, what was your objective?

And they're like, to convince the other person I'm right. And I'm like, okay, let's unpack that. Because how much do you have control over that? How much, and if your vision of success, if your objective of success is always based on the behavior of the other person, then yeah, you're not setting yourself up to be effective.

Topic 5. Curiosity and respect in difficult conversations (16:34)

Jeff Hunt:

And isn't a, a good strategy also to enter into these conversations with a high degree of curiosity.

Francesca LeBaron:

Absolutely. Absolutely. I encourage my leaders to really stay on their side of the net. The only thing you know at the end of the day is your thoughts, your opinions, your motivations, your needs, your emotions.

You have no idea the thoughts, needs, motivations, intentions of someone else. We think we know. We think we know. And that's the number one way to get people defensive, but we actually do not. So it's very important to know where your limits are. Like your limit of knowing something is factual and everything that's beyond that.

Just being curious. Even things like feelings we can think, be like, oh, I'm seeing your anxious, or, I'm seeing you're upset. I mean, for me, I'm spicy. So if, if someone told me of like, oh, you, you're angry. That would get me defensive because I'm like, you don't, you don't know what I'm feeling. But if you could be with curiosity of like, Hey, I just gave you this feedback.

I wanna know how it's landing. How are you feeling right now? Yeah. That gives an opportunity for me to express that without you telling me what you think you're observing.

Jeff Hunt:

Which goes back to what I was saying in the intro, that's so much more respectful. You're respecting the person, you're giving them the, the dignity.

You're empowering them to say what they actually feel rather than trying to plant something. Right?

Francesca LeBaron:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it's giving people the space to, to make room for honoring whatever lived experience they're having in the that moment. Jeff Hunt:

And if you're going to enter into a difficult conversation, let's say it's about performance feedback for an employee.

Isn't it also helpful to take inventory on what your role is in that lack of performance or dysfunction that you're experiencing before that conversation? So it comes back to your all or nothing comment earlier, you know, right, wrong, nobody is a hundred percent right or a hundred percent wrong, so why can't we season the conversation with that approach?

Francesca LeBaron:

Yeah. Well, in, in your reflection, I, I see this, you know, right, wrong. It's like we're opponents, right? I am. I am your boss and you are my opponent as the employee, underperforming employee. And I think that's where a lot of the difficulty, even just in that framing, that dynamic shows up instead of like, how do we, how do we partner?

Like I am your ally in the, in this, we're getting to the same goal, like I as your boss. I want you to knock this out of the park. I want you to do really well. How do we team up to make that happen? Instead of being like, you're, I am, I'm auditing you. I'm more like keeping track of, you're not hitting these, you're not ticking these boxes.

It's a, it's a very different, it's a very different dynamic to go in to a conversation and I think that's, and be like, I'm on your team. How do we do this together rather than you are not performing?

Topic 6. Practicing difficult conversations – preparation and roleplay (19:27)

Jeff Hunt:

Just also thinking about how difficult conversations. They require a lot of proactivity. It's easy to kick the can down the road.

I lead a group of CEOs monthly where we get together for a half day in person. Every one of those CEOs has expressed to me how difficult it is at times to be proactive with these conversations with people. It might even come down to the point where they need to let somebody go, and when we ask, okay, well is this person somebody that should have been on board six months ago?

Oftentimes they'll say No. I should have let this person go a long time ago, and it comes down to them avoiding conversations along the way, which goes back to what you were saying about flexing this muscle and you're creating this lab for people to come in and practice. So how can people at work that aren't able to be a part of your class actually practice these difficult concepts?

Francesca LeBaron:

I think practicing is key. Because I, what you were describing as we just wait until it's too late, if we're having like little conversations along the way versus one big I, I have to let you go. What I think of when I'm reflecting on that dynamic is the short term versus long term. I'm gonna choose like the short-term comfort, knowing that in the long term, if I keep on not bringing it up, that is a consequence of it.

One of the things that helps the leaders that I work with is thinking of it like that, of this is your responsibility to deliver this in the moment so that it is not building up like this over time. It's understanding the cost. Of not engaging and not giving that feedback, and also setting up an environment where it's normalizing this.

I think that's a big thing of we wait. Feedback is something that you give once, maybe twice a year. And all the studies show that that is not an effective way to actually inspire behavior change. So how do we normalize this in a way that this is a daily in the moment thing that we all do because we're on each other's team and we wanna show up well for each other.

Rather than this very anxiety inducing thing that happens once or twice a year, no one likes that. Managers don't like that.

Jeff Hunt:

Not at all. Well, and it's goes back to if we're practicing these things regularly, then all of a sudden we over time develop a culture where it's normalized. Mm-hmm. And maybe even it becomes part of the onboarding process.

So that people understand when they come to work, you're, you're gonna get feedback and we want you to give feedback as well. Is that the way to indoctrinated into an organization's culture?

Francesca LeBaron:

It's a great question, and I'm working with one, a startup right now that it's in their value system. They have a value called clear the air.

And that is every day. And then you have a shared language around it. So it's not this big. Oh my gosh, I'm getting feedback. It's like, Hey, I just need to clear the air on something. And we have a structure, we have a format where I can deliver it. In a way it's as supportive.

Topic 7. Difficult conversations with my manager or my boss – managing up (22:37)

Jeff Hunt:

I love that. What about managing up?

So I'm an employee. My manager is driving me crazy because there are certain things that he or she is doing that are preventing me from being as successful as I could be. What are tips, tricks, and strategies for employees? Cuz sometimes this dynamic is more difficult for the employee when they're trying to give upward feedback.

Francesca LeBaron:

Absolutely. That is the hardest. Dyna my, we feel like we have everything to lose, right? And nothing to gain. One thing that I encourage is the open dialogue of. Making sure that it's delivered and heard. And a great way to do that is be like, what feedback would you want from me? What kind of feedback is helpful?

Or if it specifically, I had a coaching session yesterday of being like, if I give you feedback on this, is that helpful to you? So really even before we're delivering, even before we're doing it, and particularly if you, you can connect it to either a value, a shared goal as something you're doing. There's a leader I'm working with that is really working on promoting diversity and inclusion and like he has been very upfront, like that is one of his goals and a direct report.

Was seeing that that wasn't happening in a few ways. So she's delivering this of, Hey, I know this is your goal. I know that you stated publicly that you're actively working to promote this in our organization. Would you be open for, would that be supportive? Would that be helpful if I saw behaviors or ways that you're not acting in alignment with that?

Is that useful to you? And then managers are in this picture, sort of like I said, that's what I want. And feedback and when that's not happening would be helpful. So in that way, you're not imposing it upon them. You're creating a space where, yes, we've established that this is helpful, or we've established this is helpful and this is how I'd like to receive that feedback.

Jeff Hunt:

And you're asking for permission, right? Which is great, whether you're an employee giving feedback to a manager or vice versa if we ask permission in advance. Hey, I'd love to give you some feedback. Are you open to that? And that could include the timing. Well, maybe they will say, no, right now it's actually not a great time, but tomorrow morning at 10, can we get together?

Then all of a sudden we've given them permission to prepare for that conversation and it could end up being a better conversation.

Francesca LeBaron:

Right? Absolutely. I'm always, always co-author the space. In what way do we make this a win-win for both of us? Because I can't read your mind and you can't read mine. We wanna both help each other get better.

So help me understand what this Venn diagram looks like. And I think we need to dispel the myth of like, all feedback. Welcome, always. That's just, that's never been true. That's never true. That's not true for me. I don't, there are very certain times I want feedback. There's very, but again, how you want feedback, when you want feedback and like what you're looking for feedback on.

Well, you're looking for feedback on Exactly. They're, I'm focusing on certain things in my development, and if I get all the feedback all the time, I'm gonna get overwhelmed. I'm gonna wanna shut down. So I'm like, these are the three things I want feedback on. I am very clear with my, my colleagues of like, what is helpful and I don't like it.

Like right after I teach or right after I give a speaking engagement, like I am drained. I am the most low energy. Yes, I'm sure that's exactly what you wanna give it to me cuz it's fresh in your head. And my request is you write it down and we talk about it after, like I'm better resourced.

Topic 8. Conflict that makes sense (25:59)

Jeff Hunt:

That's great.

I love that example. And you just spoke that with so much clarity. It's like you figured out what works for you and you communicate it explicitly and clearly. And then the other person can take that information and hopefully they'll honor and respect that. Are there times that avoiding conflict is actually a healthier alternative?

You know, we could sort of turn this on its ear for a second. Mm-hmm. What are some times or examples where avoiding conflict is actually does make sense?

Francesca LeBaron:

Great question. Great question. The thing that comes to my mind, I don't know if a avoidance is the right word, but, and I practice this myself, of the first step is alre, always capacity checking.

Check in with your body. Check in with your, if you're, you're done, the inventory, how's your body feeling? What do you have capacity for? And I do think that a, what I would love to see more leaders do is take a step back when they don't have capacity. When we are a low capacity and we are a heated some, uh, speaking from someone who is naturally spicy.

That is when I cause the most harm. And I look back at my career and I wish I had had the tools I have now to recognize, not even to, but to recognize when I'm not regulated. Cuz I, nothing's gonna be productive if you're not in a place when you have a capacity, emotional, physical capacity to have a difficult conversation.

So my number one answer is when you capacity check and you do not have the reserves and there's no shame in that. I'm truly encouraging people to take the space that they need. Um, I'm not saying that you get to like blow off all tough conversations because you are like me and a bit spicy, but recognize that when you're in a place to not be productive, it is a great self-awareness too.

There's nothing against that, and I think we have, we have this false narrative that it's, it's a character flaw to not have capacity all the time to have a difficult conversation when we're all human. And that's just not the case. Um, we judge ourselves. Mm-hmm. I should be able to show up. I should be, and the reality is you can should all day, but if you're not, if you're not in a place to have a productive conversation, you're gonna create harm.

That's the number one thing I think of is, uh, is capacity.

Jeff Hunt:

And if you're shooting, you know, pretty soon you're shooting on yourself and you don't wanna be shitting on yourself. Mm-hmm. What are your thoughts about overlaying the whole diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging elements to this topic? Because there are many people that could be coming into conflict from a very different perspective because they're coming from an underserved community or class, and so it's adding a fourth dimension to this.

Do you have any thoughts about that?

Francesca LeBaron:

Such a good question. I have so many thoughts. Actually, my undergrad class right now is exactly this. I realized how much d e I is a part a, a part of conflict. So it's a specific conflict and d e I class together specifically on this topic because if, unless you're having an argument with yourself there, there's dynamics at play.

There's race, there's gender, there's in the business world, there's a hierarchy, there's power dynamics, and they're always at play in a difficult conversation. Always. Always. So how do you recognize those? How do you call those out? And how do you make space for what is true? So that's one. And the other thing I think of is I'm a huge advocate of, of workplaces becoming more diverse.

But this having a skillset of this is what you need to get the value of that diversity, right. When people are coming from, as you said, from different places, from different backgrounds with different lived experience, there should be more conflict in the workplace. If we're all carbon copies of each other, we're gonna agree on everything, and that's not how innovation happens.

So to reap the benefits, yes, you can have different people who look. Different in the workplace and have different backgrounds, but you're not gonna reap the benefits of diversity unless we're, unless we're having those conversations where we bring our different perspectives and we can share them in a way where we don't have to agree with each other, but we can listen to each other.

And I think that that is the, that's the problem with a lot of workplaces right now. We're like, oh yeah, we need to get diversity, but. This is how you get the benefit of diversity by learning how to disagree respectfully and how to make sure all voices are heard. So I have, ugh, I have a lot of opinions on this, but I, but the long story short is having a conflict resolution skillset that's based on empathy.

And before I give you my point, I really need to understand where you're coming from. I challenge my leaders to be, I am not, I'm not allowed to give my point until you feel completely heard. And what your lived experience is. So I can repeat back and be like, what I'm hearing is you think this, this, and this for this reasons, and this is what you're bringing.

Did I get everything? Is there anything else that I, that you would like me to understand? Great. Until I can do that in a way where I can repeat back and you feel heard. Only then can I give, okay. This is, are you interested in hearing my perspective on this? We're seeing this polarization, we're seeing this inability to listen to people who disagree with us in a way that does not facilitate that type of dialogue.

Jeff Hunt:

That's such great sage advice also, because if we can do that really well, we're gonna ultimately increase engagement with one another, right? Because what people want most is to be heard. Absolutely. And so if I come out of a conversation knowing that I've been fully H heard and understood, Even if I don't exactly get my way, I'm gonna feel better than if I left that conversation and I felt like that person did not understand me, they didn't hear me, I wasn't able to voice all of my points or concerns.

Francesca LeBaron:

Which is so wonderful and a great objective. And it's so hard when we disagree with people. They're just mentally. As soon as we disagree, as soon as you say something that I don't agree with, I, my brain turns off and I lose the ability to listen when ironically, that's the time I need to zero in the most.

Jeff Hunt:

Absolutely. Okay. Before I switch us to some lightning round questions, I wanna ask one more question, and that's about the tangible financial benefits to conflict resolution to working well in this area. Are there benefits financially?

Francesca LeBaron:

Financially? Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, what, just piggybacking on our previous conversation, Being able to have this skillset disagree respectfully, that is how you reap the innovation benefits of diversity in the workplace.

Having different types of people in the workplace means that you need to, in order to get the brilliance from them, they need to feel like they're in a place where their voice matters, where they'll be heard when they give their opinions, even if they're not popular opinions. So that is absolutely huge from innovation.

And then I love the statistics you gave at the beginning. It is so true. 2.8 hours per week just dealing with conflict if you are. And what I'm seeing a lot in, in my students and um, the leaders that I'm working with is just the real estate, the mental real estate, it takes. When you're having, when you're avoiding that conflict, cuz you're constantly thinking about it.

And that's time I'm not thinking about the next product I'm gonna launch or how I'm gonna, you know, problem solve our next bug in the workplace. I'm thinking about how to conflict manage with the individuals on my team. So it is, it's not, it's the mental real estate. It is the mental gymnast. Gymnastics we're doing in the workplace, and it's a lot of, uh, we're seeing now a lot with like, quiet quitting.

It's that I'm not having conversations. So if I don't feel comfortable, if we're not having those difficult conversations now, I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna leave. I would rather just put in my two weeks notice and have a difficult conversation with my boss. So you're just leaving amazing talent, you know, on the and, and losing 'em that way.

Jeff Hunt:

So that's such a great reference because really what you're talking about is reducing turnover re you're reducing turnover through increased engagement. If you're a for-profit organization, highly engaged workforce companies outperform disengaged workforce companies from a profitability perspective.

So I'm kind of connecting the dots, Francesca, from engagement to reduce turnover to you probably add better productivity in there because you mentioned the 2.8 lost hours per week. So anyone that's a CFO listening to this podcast can understand there are actual, tangible financial benefits to conflict resolution, right?

Francesca LeBaron:

Absolutely. Absolutely. There is a dollar and cents an implication. Yeah,

Topic 9. Lighting round questions (34:44)

Jeff Hunt:

Exactly. All right. Let's shift into some lightning round questions. I'm ready. I'm ready. What are you most grateful for?

Francesca LeBaron:

One of ha's values is student always, and I am so grateful to be in a space that I'm constantly learning. I have a take a class, uh, run a class mentality, and I love that I could get to constantly learn in the, in the field I'm in.

Jeff Hunt:

What's the most difficult leadership lesson you've learned over your career?

Francesca LeBaron:

Asking for help. I had to learn that the hard way. I thought being a leader was doing everything yourself and. The best, hardest lesson is when you can invite people in to help you out. When you can raise your hand and you say, I'm really struggling right now.

I've built my best relationships and had the best outcomes that way.

Jeff Hunt:

Difficult to do sometimes, isn't it? It's so hard.

Francesca LeBaron:

Still a struggle. Still a struggle.

Jeff Hunt:

Who's one person that you would interview if you could living or not? Um, Brene Brown. Love it. What's your top book recommendation?

Francesca LeBaron:

Oh, non-violent communication.Oh my gosh. Ah, yeah. My Bible. Absolutely. Nbc, nbc, nbc. No hard feelings. I loved that one too.

Jeff Hunt:

What is the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Francesca LeBaron:

Do you wanna be right or do you wanna be effective?

Jeff Hunt:

Very good. Mm-hmm. And at the end of the day, which one is more fulfilling in life? Very true.

Francesca LeBaron:

I'll give you a hint which one it is.

Jeff Hunt:

So if you had to encapsulate our conversation into a few nuggets, what would you say the most important takeaways are?

Francesca LeBaron:

Stay curious. Seek to understand. First, make sure that your partner feels heard and understood first and foremost. Person. That is what everybody wants at the end of the day. You don't have to agree with me, but I really want you to hear me and I really want you to understand me.

Also, like capacity check, take a step back. If you're not on a place to be productive, don't do it. Don't do it. And then learn. Learn your triggers. Learn what a activates you and unpack why so much of conflict resolution are is self-awareness.

Jeff Hunt:

Such great wisdom today. Thank you so much for coming on the show today, Francesca.

Francesca LeBaron:

Thank you so much for having me.

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Outro(37:00)

Closing music jingle/sound effects

Jeff Hunt:

Thanks for listening to Human Capital, if you like this show please tell your friends and also take the time to go rate and review us. Human Capital is a production of GoalSpan, your integrated source for performance management. Now go out and be the inspiration to other humans, and thank you for being human kind.