68. The Thinking Field

Intro: Duration: (01:38)

Opening music jingle & sound effects

Jeff Hunt:

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This is the Human Capital Podcast, and I'm your host, Jeff Hunt. When reflecting on how most of us feel about our work, it's often influenced by some simple things, but these things can be difficult to implement and sustain. Some of them include whether anyone tells you you're appreciated or not, whether people pay attention to you, And whether or not you feel relaxed at work and you can express your thoughts without judgment or pressure, cultural constructs within organizations are often created by limiting beliefs, which, ironically, prevents those organizations from achieving the very things they seek.

Today, I get to welcome someone to the mic that has a remarkable story. My guest, Candice Smith, lived through harmful systems and structures earlier in her life, ones that were founded on limiting beliefs. She's not only overcome these structures, but now teaches and trains others on the opposite of these limitations.

How to build inclusion and collaboration at work while maintaining high performance. Candice, it's a great honor to welcome you to the show today.

Candice Smith:

Thank you, Jeff. Such a gift to be here.

Topic 1. What was your career journey and who inspired you most along the way? (01:39)

Jeff Hunt:

Well, I want to start by learning a little bit about your backstory. You have an incredible backstory that's shaped you both personally and professionally, I would imagine.

So, tell our listeners a little bit about that and also who has inspired you along your journey.

Candice Smith:

Thanks, Jeff. Well, I grew up in apartheid South Africa and. Was classified as colored under this regime, I identify as black. And as you pointed out, this particular system was all based on the assumption that one group could think better than another group based on skin color.

So, the exact opposite, of course, of what we're trying to purport in the world today around inclusion. And welcoming of difference. So grew up in a system which was saying back to us, you don't matter. And you can't think well, the gifts. In the, it was that I grew up in a micro system of a community that did not internalize that belief system.

And my grandparents, my parents, my aunties and uncles, my teachers were all prolific. Um, independent thinkers who were seeking to disrupt that system and at a systemic level, but also within our micro moments. And as children, we were encouraged to think for ourselves a question. What do you think? And no, don't, don't go along with what the others are saying.

What do you think? You know, even as a little girl, that's what stands out for me from My uncle, Uncle Percy, the badger human who was... The freedom fighter in the eighties, the 1980s was a heartbeat of resistance to the regime. And I feel like my coming of age. So, passage stages actually are quite parallel to the growth and evolution of South Africa.

So I was 13 in 1985 when it was the height of the resistance. And there was a lot going on that was going to eventually dismantle Apartheid. And so it was quite a time to be a teenager, but having that ecosystem of teachers who were encouraging us to not internalize these limiting laws, beliefs, and structures, we were able to thrive and remember our education system was segregated along racial lines.

And so there was this. Attempt to breed distressed and breed this thinking that other people are incapable based on skin color. But to the contrary, we thrived. And in what was it, 1990 was when Mandela was released and I turned 18. So that rite of passage when our country was at this turning point. Was when I was then also coming of age and I was 21 when I was able to vote.

It was part of the first, uh, black people who were able to vote in a democratic election. And so it really feels like there's all of these seminal moments that could usher me into my coming to consciousness as a black woman. On my career journey and other people that stand out for me are a high school teacher who was also a freedom fighter, who created what I call a thinking environment for me.

She became a mentor who really wanted to know what I thought and a beautiful story is that about 10 years ago, I ended up training her leadership team because she went on to become a dean of an education department. At a seminal university in South Africa and ended up training her leadership team in creating the environment. So yeah, full circle.

[00:05:56] Jeff Hunt:

That is amazing. Well, I'm just reflecting on how amazing your story is, actually, and the fact that part of overcoming started with these microsystems that you called them. So you basically had networks of people that were close to you that were encouraging you to really think differently and think critically.

And you were inspired by your teacher and maybe by your Uncle Percy. And so These things really have helped to shape you as to who you are today, haven't they?

Candice Smith:

Absolutely. And there's the term Ubuntu, which you may or may not have heard is referring to the invitation, I am because you are. And it really is about the independence, interrelationship, interdependence.

We cannot exist without each other. And you can imagine that in a system that was trying to dehumanize everybody, being able to access that one piece, which nobody can take away from us, our ability to be human and be in connection, no matter what the physical or economic. Social circumstances is, yeah, it's so, so invaluable.

Topic 2. The thinking field (07:13)

Jeff Hunt:

Remarkable. I know that you're trained in Nancy Klein's work in the thinking environment, and your consulting practice is called the thinking field, and you're an expert, if you will, on these ten different components. And for our listeners, you can look up Nancy Klein, and I think you'll find some amazingly powerful and transformative leadership and coaching resources that can help you develop and learn and grow.

But there's these 10 different components of the thinking environment. And I'm wondering, you know, we probably don't, it'd be great if we had a couple hours, Candice, to go through all of them in detail, because there's so much to unpack there. Maybe what you can do is just take a few minutes to walk us through some of the most important ones in your opinion, what they are and why they're important. Is that too large of an ask?

Candice Smith:

No, I'm laughing because it is really like asking, what was your favorite child? And I appreciate that. Yes, I'll have to be quite discerning. Yeah. And I'm also laughing because they called the 10 components and sometimes people get it mixed up and call them the 10 commandments.

And it's really. Yes, it's quite funny because we also say, Pete, can we find the 11th component? Because it sounds like it's this made up, tried, you know, all neatly wrapped up in a bro invention. And it's quite the opposite, right? They just happened to be 10. Components, and they're not an invention, they are based on years of observation of what does it take for us to thrive in our own thinking, in our independent thinking?

How do we really get to think for ourselves and think well and think well together? And this question so intrigued the founder of the thinking environment, Nancy, that she started a school to specifically observe what was going to enable her learners to thrive. And over many, many years, they noticed, her and her teachers, they noticed that they were in fact, ways of treating one another that was making.

The most impact on the learner's ability to think well, that it was this quality of the relating, the quality of listening. That was making the most difference in how learners were thinking and thinking for themselves and thinking together. And so each one of these components, not commandments, each one of these components is really powerful by themselves.

And when they operate as a system all together, all 10 together, it's transformational and they're all words that we are familiar with in our everyday experience. But the meaning in the context of creating a thinking environment is about the ability to help us think for ourselves and think well. So it has a little bit of a nuanced meaning in this context.

So for example, attention. That would be the cornerstone for me. Attention in this context is about how can we be listening without interruption and with this incredible respect that is going to ignite the thinking of another. And so if we think about our dominant way of operating. Our dominant way of operating is about listening to reply as we listen to one another, most of our attention is actually taken up with waiting for our turn and planning what it is that we're going to say in response.

That is our contract of exchange thinking. And that's what the world's dominated by. What we are inviting is to create more spaces where we are listening to ignite another's thinking and have listening be what we call generative, generative because we actually get to generate new thinking in another and we listen.

The quality of our attention profoundly impacts the quality of the person's thinking we're listening to when they know that they are not going to be interrupted. One of the key indicators of this kind of attention is that the person we're listening to knows, okay, this is a white space. Like you're listening to me now.

I know there's no chance you're going to interrupt me because you are really interested in where I'm going next. In my thinking and people say, but how do I, you know, how do I not interrupt because I get excited or I want to show I'm interested or show encouragement. Well, if you're really interested in what the other person is thinking, you wouldn't dream of interrupting because your interruption would then take them off in another direction and you'd never really know where they were going to go in their thinking.

And so one way to offset. That impetus to interrupt is to get even more curious, where is this person going to go next? Not just curious about what they just said, but curious about where they're going to go next. So that quality of interest and the contract to not interrupt, and that not interrupting piece is so key because we are wired to opposite threat.

We are always scanning for threats. So if we knew we don't have to be scanning for the threat of interruption, so much more of our brain function is available to us to really do the thinking rather than focusing on not being interrupted.

Jeff Hunt:

I love that concept and I'm also connecting the dots from a leadership perspective if a manager has a team that reports to them and each person on that team feels like when they come to their manager with an idea or a thought or something that's important to communicate and the manager is really present and attentive and like you said listening to understand rather than an ignite Rather than listening to reply, then that employee is all of a sudden going to feel more engaged and connected and valued in the organization.

And isn't it also true that they are more likely to be better listeners themselves and most likely to be a higher performer because they feel like they're valued. Is this too much of a stretch or is it safe to say these things are all correlated?

Candice Smith:

They absolutely all are. We always talk about the components actually calling out to each other.

So, what you've just named, the, is the component of equality and also the component of ease all gets wrapped up when we are so present and attending in this way. It says back to people that they matter and that we value their thinking. And component of equality is operating on two levels. One on one level, pretty simple.

Everybody gets a turn in the thinking environment. So your example of the leader pausing to listen. With all of the components present is modeling, obviously good, inclusive leadership, but then the person being listened to is also going to get good at providing that for everybody else. So they, they internalize this as a key leadership skill, competence, competency, and capability.

And it becomes a way of being within the organization where everybody knows that they are equal in the ability to think well, because their thinking will be invited, people will be asking, and what do you think, and they won't be interrupted and have equal terms, either in what we call systematic rounds or in what we call listening peers, or just that.

Employee will then get good at asking the leader what they think and also not interrupting and learning from them in that way and the leader models vulnerability, not as a kind of trick, but as genuine way of thinking about what is it that's on my mind and externalizing their thinking to, to colleagues, in terms of virtuous cycle.

And it doesn't need to take more time. People go, but who has the time, right? So that leader pausing. It can be five minutes that a person can feel completely heard and received. It's the person, if the listener is saying back to the, the person they're listening to, there's nowhere else I'd rather be than listening to what you're really thinking about.

And that's the component of Eve, the third component. She said, you know, which are my favorite children in terms of the components. Eve is another one. And that is saying, you know, we live. In this urgency dominated culture, you know, it's one meeting after the next back to the back, no breathing space. What about those five minutes that that leader has provided for his employee, his daughter employee.

And in that time, there is just this spaciousness, even if it's just five minutes, the leader can say, I have five minutes, but let's use this time. And inside they're going. There's no emergency right now, I can be fully present. So the, the constant saying back to ourselves, oh, urgent, urgent, adrenaline fueled is not a thinking enhancer.

Adrenaline is the thinking inhibitor. The two key organizing principles in our brain, one is to minimize threat and the other is to maximize reward. And so we either, you know, towards state or we are in an avoid state. And when we are urgent and somebody is listening to us in a distracted and anxious way, we contract our thinking contract and we are more prone to really narrow thinking that is not able to make connections and contrary to somebody saying back to you, there's enough time.

Yeah. And I'm not going to interrupt you. There is more of our brain chemistry getting set up to be in a toward state, which allows us to make more connections, to see the relationships, to think more systemically and creatively. So five minutes, you can do it.

Topic 3. The gift of attention. Becoming an active listener (17:33)

Jeff Hunt:

And it feels like a real gift that you're giving somebody else as well.

It's the ultimate gift is the gift of attention. Most people simply want to be heard and understood. That's why I like to call it a gift. I'm also thinking about how attention can be stifled, your ability to be patient in listening can be stifled by many things. I would imagine it could probably be stifled by anxiety and stress, maybe a relational conflict or strife.

And so those things, to me, feel like the opposite of. Spaciousness, which is really what you're talking about with this attention. It's more of a abundance mindset versus a scarcity mindset. And so my question for you, Candice, is really around how can we develop greater skills in this area? Is it about more mindfulness or self-awareness? Share with our listeners how they can become more attentive listeners.

Candice Smith:

So I think reframing the The listening gift, well, yeah, you calling it a gift is already a start, right? Rather than something we have to do that. It's actually, it's good for us too, as the listener, because we get to slow down. We get to have more ease.

So what happens in our bodies when we listen in this way is actually really thinking enhancing for us. It's the listener. So, creating that slowing down, the mindfulness is one approach, um, that people find. Really powerful for regulating the internal, um, ease. And so, for each person finding that way that slows you down, be it from breathing or just thinking about what do we appreciate right now.

That is going to help us to slow down and be in a more toward state. So finding conscious ways to be appreciative, it's us to also set up our biology to be in a more receptive state and listen better and. To see listening as not so much as being patient. It's not so much about needing to be patient as it is to be, how can I get really interested because patients almost implies that we're waiting.

So people will say to me, Oh, you must be a really patient person to do this work. And it's more about really fascinated by people thinking and. And where they're going to go, rather than I'm waiting for that pause and for me to come in. So having that level of wanting to know what people think is really a key piece.

Topic 4. Appreciation (20:29)

Jeff Hunt:

Wonderful. So you've mentioned attention, equality, you mentioned ease. Any others that come to mind that really stand out?

Candice Smith:

Absolutely. Appreciation is the one jumping up and down right now. I think I just, I, I just made reference to that. And appreciation is inviting us to notice what is going well and say it.

So we live in quite a appreciation phobic culture. And thankfully that shifting now there's. There's more overt practices of noticing what to be grateful for. And that's, that's really good. And there's still, there's still kind of what we call the tall poppy syndrome here in, in Australia around it's assumed, you know, we shouldn't be having to say to people what they're doing well, because they should know that we appreciate them or.

You know, you really shouldn't be elevating people when actually the neuroscience now proves over and over again, that we thrive, our neurochemistry is really set up most powerfully when we are in the presence of genuine appreciation. Criticism sets us up into that avoid state that I've described, the contracted thinking, the triggered thinking.

And so it's not about living in a Pollyanna world and saying that it's not, it's being denial around what's not working and only focused on what's going well. To the contrary, it's saying. If we can be intentionally having a practice of noticing what's good, starting our meetings with a round of what is going well, or what are we noticing that is good.

Crafting questions in our meetings for appreciation to be explicitly present at the start and ending our meetings with what are we. valued from the meeting and or what is a quality that we appreciate in our colleague on the left or the right of us and saying that back to them sincerely and specifically and succinctly.

That is going to enable us to think well in the meeting in a way that is not enabled when we dive straight into the challenges. So it's not about having an icebreaker and appreciation is not an icebreaker. It's a thinking enhancer, our brains. Our bodies need it in order to think well. And so we presence it both by having questions that specifically get us to reflect appreciatively on a project or on our lives, and we also practice it by noticing qualities in one another and not just noticing it, which we do.

But to say it, we say it back to one another as a way of enabling thinking to, to flourish. And so it's not so much about saying thank you for your hard work. It's what is the quality? I so value your work. Capacity to inspire the team, or I so value your creativity. I so value your kindness, your gentleness, your energy.

So we notice these qualities about one another, but something stops us from saying it explicitly. And so one of the things we can get really good at, if we are serious about creating thinking. And feeling and being environments is to get good at being able to explicitly appreciate others and to get really good at being able to receive appreciation.

Because it's quite counterculture. It can be hard for some of us to hear appreciation of our qualities and receive it. And it can be like building a muscle to. Practice, because it's a gift that's been given to us, a genuine and sincere gift. We wouldn't throw a gift back at somebody as we receive it, we receive it. And so to get good at receiving appreciation.

Jeff Hunt:

It feels like organizations that have more of an appreciation culture might be able to have more effective, constructive conversations as well. In other words, you mentioned, which I really appreciate, Candice, that sometimes we do have to have difficult conversations with people.

When things are not going well, but if we have a ongoing spirit of appreciation of each other and all of the things around us, is it true that we might be a little bit more resilient when it comes time to hear some difficult feedback of ways we could improve or grow or perform better or, or Be a better teammate, if you will.

Candice Smith:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Because our brains will be more receptive. So we'll be able to receive that information that's challenging because we've been much more in that towards state in that relationship. The dominant experience is of being in a towards state in that relationship and being valued and having had explicit appreciation for the team or for ourselves as individuals.

We are able to hear that challenging information and not just hear it, but able to think through it. So this is all of these components are not about feeling good. Thank goodness. They do make us feel good, but it's about enabling us to think well. So because of that component of appreciation, having been part of the culture, we are then able to then receive this other component, which you've just named is the component of information.

What is it that we need to face that needs facing? What are the facts that we need to take on board in order to think, well, we can't do that unless we've got the component of appreciation and also equality, of course.

Topic 5. Horizontal and vertical leadership development (26:31)

Jeff Hunt:

So, I want to shift and talk a little bit about horizontal and vertical leadership development, which might be foreign to some listeners.

Can you explain a little bit about these concepts and how they come to play when you're working with your clients?

Candice Smith:

Sure, thanks for the beautiful question. So, yes, to demystify those, those big concepts, horizontal development is referring to the adding of more knowledge, skills, and competencies. It's about what you know, and it can be measured.

Whereas vertical development is more about the outcome of that is. The ability to think in more complex and systemic and strategic and interdependent ways. It's about how you think. I think the first step in helping leaders develop for complex world is to acknowledge that there are these two types of leadership developments and the thinking environment is located, you know, really firmly in the advancing of, of vertical development and the feedback we've gotten from a range of different clients and other consultants and practitioners is, wow, this is a really simple yet profound way of promoting this kind of development.

Jeff Hunt:

And, if I understand it, it's really also inclusive of a person's cognitive development around emotional and ethical capacities and learning to synthesize these complex things in a very positive way. I'm not trying to overly complicate it, but those seem to be important nuances. Is that true?

Candice Smith:

So yes, it is saying that we can be looking more rigorously at things when we take appreciation seriously, that it's not, it's not about, Oh, let's do this as a kind of technique and then we'll get to the real meat.

Like, you know, there's the whole, there's a whole body of work, positive psychology that is profoundly diving deep into why having a lens that is appreciation focused is important. And it's about being rigorous in order to address that, which is not working. And systemically, there's so many pieces right now that are not working well.

And so our capacity to be seeing, so what are the, we are the shards of light that are coming through that we can be working with rather than becoming despondent and getting into that contracted place around. We can't find a way forward and the polarization that we are experiencing right now in so many parts of the world where we can't hear differing views.

What is it that we can be valuing in one another that is enabling us to listen better and what is it that we can be, um, letting go of in terms of I'm afraid to listen to this person because if I listen to this person fully. I'm going to no longer be me. I'm going to have to give up something of myself or my culture, or I'm going to, means I lose.

If I listen to you, I lose. Where's, what is the appreciative approach to engaging to indifference, what it's that we can value here in order to listen better.

Jeff Hunt:

And that type of decision making and communication and engagement around. Right, wrong, sort of binary, black, white thinking is not conducive to innovation and connection.

And like you were saying earlier, appreciation and inclusion. So it's, and yet so many organizations and teams get stuck. In those places, don't they? They feel like they have a high degree of competency. And so they feel like they are the authority and they can make the decision without being as inclusive as they could be, which could actually end up with a better decision and result.

Candice Smith:

That component of equality, it's such an overused word, but what does it really look like in practice? What does equality really look like when? We are walking the talk and it's saying back to people, I value your thinking. I think that we are all capable of thinking equally well, regardless of where we sit on the hierarchy.

Not to be in denial around the power dynamics in organizations. It's to say that can we be creating a culture where we actively seek out. The thinking of everybody else, not just because it's politically correct and ticking of boxes, but because it is going to get the best thinking because homogeneity is not a thinking enhancer and getting diverse thinking from people whose voices don't usually get heard.

It's critical and they are really simple and practical ways to do that that we can recommend in the thinking environment that can get those values that are up on the wall, off the wall and into the boardroom and on the floor.

Jeff Hunt:

Actual behaviors that are lived out every day. You've shared so much about the ways we can do this, like better attention and ease and appreciation and equality.

And if I'm an employee in an organization, and I don't feel that there's a value on inclusion, or equity, or belonging, or this type of thinking, what are some things that I can do in my own area or sphere of influence?

Candice Smith:

Yes, the invitation to start where you have agency and that's what you're speaking to here. And start by modeling that you can listen to your team in a way that it's going to always say back to them that they matter and that you value their thinking. And so where are the areas that you can be making a real thinking environment that would have the ripples go out so that people can. Be encouraged.

Encouragement is another one of the, the 10 components, the giving of courage to go beyond the edge of our thinking. So in your sphere of influence, can you be giving courage to others who perhaps. Assume that they don't have a voice or don't have value to be accessing, what do they truly think and what could they be saying and doing to be affecting change and to not be falling into, um, places of, of hopelessness and the component of information is saying, how can we Dismantle denial as well, and be, have the courage to name that which needs to be named and have that, you know, people talk about speak up cultures, but you can't create speak up cultures if the components are not present, if people are being vilified for speaking up, it's just a lovely slogan, right?

So in your sphere of influence, how can you be cultivating courage in your teams? Great.

Topic 6. Lighting round question (34:27)

Jeff Hunt:

Are you ready to shift into some lightning round questions?

Candice Smith:

Sure.

Jeff Hunt:

Okay, as we wrap up, the first one that I want to ask you is, what are you most grateful for? Speaking of gratitude and appreciation. Candice Smith:

Oh, gee. The elders, you know, I really think the elders as I've shared how I grew up, so my immediate elders, but also the elders and the spiritual lineage that my beloved husband and I follow and the elders here in Australia, the Aboriginal elders past and present who have nurtured for tens of thousands of years.

Incredible culture that's nurtured community, country, and the sacred. So deep bow to the elders.

Jeff Hunt:

What is a difficult leadership lesson you've learned over your career?

Candice Smith:

Only one. Yes. When I have relinquished my own capacity to think for myself, funny that working with the thinking environment, but I have sometimes been making it.

Big decision sought input from others and allowed that to cloud my own thinking or just impact my own thinking too much. And I know that in those times, I mean, when I've looked back, I mean, all right, I didn't allow myself enough time to think. And so we live and learn.

Jeff Hunt:

Who's one person you would interview if you could, living or not?

Candice Smith:

Well, I love this question because I would love to interview you, Jeff, because you're interviewing so many phenomenal people and I love curators. And I think that you're an incredible curator and I, I just would love to hear more about what, what has most impacted you and your journey of curating. Yeah. I just love what you're doing.

Jeff Hunt:

You're so kind. Do you have any books to recommend?

Candice Smith:

Yes, that's another one of those, uh, who's your favorite trial questions? Yes, I love, love, love books. So I would recommend More Time to Think by Nancy Klein. She's written a number of books on the thinking environment. I usually recommend this one, her second one on the thinking environment to check it out. Easy to remember, more time to think.

The irony, right, of yes, think for ourselves and yes, they are, there is a place for advice. And in this case, it was being recommended to get trained up as a thinking environment coach and facilitator. And that really set me on a trajectory that allowed me to express who I am and be able to be of service.

So yes, deep bow to that sage who's on that track.

Jeff Hunt:

So, if you were to summarize the talk today into one or two or three important takeaways, what would you like to leave our listeners with?

Candice Smith:

Always pause and ask yourself, what do I really, really, really think here? And always pause and ask others, what do you really, really, really think?

And mean it and get interested and see what a difference that makes.

Jeff Hunt:

Now, how can people find you? Candice Smith:

My website. TheThinkingField. com and I'm on LinkedIn, Candice Smith.

Jeff Hunt:

Candice, thank you so much for coming on the show. I loved our conversation.

Candice Smith:

Thank you, Jeff. It's been phenomenal. Thanks for this lovely adventure.

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Outro(38:17)

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Jeff Hunt:

Thanks for listening to Human Capital, if you like this show please tell your friends and also take the time to go rate and review us. Human Capital is a production of GoalSpan, your integrated source for performance management. Now go out and be the inspiration to other humans, and thank you for being human kind.